Curse

belshazaarswrath · May 28, 2010, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Well it's pretty obvious that Anet was making a bloodbath out of this (hey lets have Dhuum come and knock them out of the game to make everyone watching shit their pants!). To me it looks more like their trying to appease the mindless masses than actually do something good for the game and its players. And its worked...

majoho · May 28, 2010, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

You might also want to consider this is just a game!

Tell that to the OP.

kanuks · May 28, 2010, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zarion Silverarrow

Botting itself should not be punished,but the benefits from it.

Like; If a person botted and all it did was take 20 steps in a town,does he deserve a ban?

Yes he does. It's against the rules. You knew the risks, took them, got caught... the end.

That's a lesson.

Oh yeah not to mention that I'm pretty sure you did more than walk around 20 feet in a town with that bot.

Zarion Silverarrow · May 28, 2010, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

Yes he does. It's against the rules. You knew the risks, took them, got caught... the end.

That's a lesson.

Oh yeah not to mention that I'm pretty sure you did more than walk around 20 feet in a town with that bot.

Ok,maybe 21 feet.

No but seriously,I shutted the bot off before it went to the explorable area.

Whether you belive it or not,its irrelevant. I know what I did.

Vl Vl D · May 28, 2010, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaneOfMach

I'm pretty sure if Anet just issued a 2 week ban on everyone who was suspected of botting and possibly wiping their platinum/ectos, it would've been more than enough to kill the momentum while still giving the players a chance to reflect on their misdemeanors.

It also means it wouldn't hinder the activity of GW and still allow them to keep around 2000 active players who are willing to change their ways. It's not like you can have a bot for everything in the game, and the people who've achieved titles and completions like vanquishing, exploration, and guardian titles must've done it through hard work as well.

I might just be a little irritated that my account has been banned as well, but the worst part of it is I didn't even get a chance to say goodbye to my friends and guild members, whom I've gotten very close to.

Bottom line is: Permament bans for people with no prior offenses might be a little harsh. If you've effectively found a way to stop botting and detect it, then the people that you've banned don't become much of a threat to the game anymore.

Build a bridge cheater. I bet you think you are L337 now lol.

Zehnchu · May 28, 2010, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by dancing gnome

The people who are dragging these threads down are the ones are are screaming "You broke the EULA, you should be banned" and then plugging their ears while kicking and screaming like children so they can't hear what anyone else is saying. There is nothing wrong with that point of view but having 700 people in every thread repeat it just bogs down the conversation and prevents any real discussions from happening.

Well it seems that people need to reminded of it time and time again because 3,700 seemed to have some how missed this warning. And we woudln't want anyone using the excuse "we didn't know" in the next set of bans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dancing gnome

The OP has a point. I think a lot of the people who got caught might not have been doing the same things as the people we think of when we think of botters. I think some of these people were perma banned for minor bot use such as just testing a bot out of curiosity or running a farm bot for a single day then realising it wasn't worth it. Sure these people did the wrong thing. Some of them probably even hurt the game in some way (which is easy to do without breaking the EULA). These people broke the EULA and that is a banable offence, almost none of them are contesting that so stop saying it as if it is new information. What many of them are asking, and some people who didn't get banned are also thinking, should every single ban be a permanent ban? Was this the best option to take against each individual?

If you bothered to read this from Anet you would have found there is more to it. And yes every ban should be permanent how else will people learn there is no excess for ignoring warnings and thinking nothing will happen to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dancing gnome

In most societies people are given second chances for errors in judgement. Humans make mistakes, it's a reality. A-Net has a variety of actions they take against accounts which break the rules, bans just being one of them. If this recent group of banings simply hit people who had farm bots running 24/7 or people who abused PvP bots to interrupt or farm faction in arenas, I wouldn't have much of a problem with them being banned. I know people who bought gold (which is about the same as botting) got caught and got an account suspension. Their gold was cleared from their account but they had already bough lots of weapons and armour they were able to keep. Why is a suspension used in this scenario, whereas a ban is used in a botting scenario?

If you are caught breaking the law you are punished bottom line, if you are caught speeding you get a ticket and if ignore that and you get three tickets within a year you lose your license (depending on state). Anet has said time and time again in the tos, eula, login announcements, ingame chat announcements, on the forums, on the offical wiki on their main site in the FAQ for the past five years. All those were/are and will be your second chances there is no excuse you nor anyone else can give.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dancing gnome

I think there is a case to be made for people who broke the rules, but had less dramatic infringements. I think it's a fair question to ask if a blanket perma ban across all infringers is the best action they could have taken, or if there were better options. I also think A-Net had this discussion internally (instead of plugging their ears and kicking and screaming like children about EULA breaches) and decided this was the best action to take.

They can it's called contacting support.

People seem to want a lot of chances when they ignored all the other warning about illegal activities. And it's the same gripe every time Anet mass bans people "we didn't do anything wrong", "we didn't know", "I only did it once", "We didn't deserve a ban" later we all find out there was more to it they didn't just one thing wrong they did a list of things.

And if they and you are innocent then that's something you can take up with support and may they lift the ban.

cormac ap dunn · May 28, 2010, 04:48 AM // 04:48

ok, its clear that a temp ban on botters accounts is not a solution, give a cheater a week to return, and they will have a new bot that is less detectable. this is the same as people that challenged nerfing of UWSC, given one shot, no matter how much further they nerfed things in game, they were determined to post game breaking speeds, they never cared that their results just worsened the nerfs, botting has the same results , nerf my bot? i'll find a better one, but go straight to Perma ban the account and guess what? no temptation, and a reduced desire by the remaining community to even try to bot. the arguement that one person only did x amount of botting so they only deserve x amount of punishment is bull, simply put, you put the same game breaking bot into play as the guy that did it for years. YOU BROKE THE SAME RULE. duration of your offense doesnt change the rule.

Krill · May 28, 2010, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Well it's pretty obvious that Anet was making a bloodbath out of this (hey lets have Dhuum come and knock them out of the game to make everyone watching shit their pants!). To me it looks more like their trying to appease the mindless masses than actually do something good for the game and its players. And its worked...

Huh? Not enjoying the rampant cheating in every PvP format makes you a mindless zombie?

The blanket ban of 3,700 accounts may have been a tad draconian but every player that was banned, from those that were botting daily on multiple accounts to those that only tried a bot once out of curiosity deserved it. The top level players that were banned due to the latter reason should have known better.

trankle · May 28, 2010, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zarion Silverarrow

Ok,maybe 21 feet.

No but seriously,I shutted the bot off before it went to the explorable area.

Whether you belive it or not,its irrelevant. I know what I did.

Look at it from Anet's perspective. You have a big bot problem. Lots of your players are making the decision to download and use bots in your game, which you do not, under any circumstances, want them to do.

Now, when deciding how to deal with this, you have to make the decision whether to place defining what is an offense up to your staff, or up to the players.

If you leave it up to your staff, you will end up with a more or less black and white system: here is the line - if you cross it, you've committed an offense, and you are punished. With easily definable terms, you can examine the data and mete out the punishments in a quick and consistent manner. The downside (from an offender's point of view) is that it does not leave much room for differentiation of punishment based on scale of offense.

If you leave it up to players, all of a sudden you've got 3700 shades of gray:
"I used a bot once, but deleted it before I got any in-game benefit."
"I used a bot once, but only got 10 gold, then deleted it."
"I used a bot to finish off my drunkard title, which I don't feel impacts the economy."
"I put 5000 hours into the game, and only used a bot for a week toward the end. I'm a loyal player who made a mistake because I was curious."
etc.

So, you go through all 3700 offenders on a case by case basis, which takes many more resources to process. And in the end, what you end up with is a playerbase that:

1. Understands that they have some wiggle room to explore the boundaries of what is considered an offense. They will experiment with new bots, exploits, etc, because they know they can push the envelope with minimal fear of retribution.

2. Will rationalize decisions to cheat. "I'll use a bot, but only to get 10k, then I'll delete it - I see that much as OK, but any more would be an offense". This means that some players who would be dissuaded from cheating in a black and white system will be much more likely to cheat in the gray system. After all, if it doesn't seem like cheating, it probably isn't.

3. Will compare punishments in forums like this and decry any apparent discrepancies that the subjective punishment system led to.

As a game developer, this is not what you want to deal with.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The thing to learn from this is that Anet defines what is and isn't an offense. Whether you benefited from your cheating is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that you trespassed. It doesn't matter that you decided against stealing from the homeowners; you saw the same locked door that every other player saw...and you made the conscious decision to break in. You don't get to decide whether to press charges.

pumpkin pie · May 28, 2010, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Sorry to barge in again, but I really think, ArenaNet has a data collection system/program in place before they took the banning action, I stumble upon an ArenaNet's programmer webpage sometime ago, and he was talking about some kind of data collecting thing he's working on in two parts, although it was not mention that it is for Guild Wars, but what this guy can do to collect data in a game is very impressive. Its like a tracker. so, I do believe that ArenaNet has all the evidence they need before (not that they need it, since they have the right to terminate anyone they like in the first place) sweeping the scythe. (must find the blog ... , god damn computer die on me again)

Mireles · May 28, 2010, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Well it's pretty obvious that Anet was making a bloodbath out of this (hey lets have Dhuum come and knock them out of the game to make everyone watching shit their pants!). To me it looks more like their trying to appease the mindless masses than actually do something good for the game and its players. And its worked...

Lets Just consider the possibility that...

ANet was on the problem a good time before we demanded a response on botting, if you believe that they banned retroactively for a considerate amount of time...and...It seems to be way personal issue with Anet hinting the skill dhumm used to slay and humiliate the offender. I would be pissed to if i was part of a staff who is paid to keep a vibrant gaming experience for fans.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Vengeance_is_Ours

Show for the mindless masses?

We DEMANDED for a response for a month and they replied, everyone that witnessed is now reminded botting will not be tolerated...honestly i can't think of more effective response to our demand.

Thank you for the reply Anet. We hear you loud and clear

majoho · May 28, 2010, 05:15 AM // 05:15

^ well put

Scary · May 28, 2010, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaneOfMach

I'm pretty sure if Anet just issued a 2 week ban on everyone who was suspected of botting and possibly wiping their platinum/ectos, it would've been more than enough to kill the momentum while still giving the players a chance to reflect on their misdemeanors.

It also means it wouldn't hinder the activity of GW and still allow them to keep around 2000 active players who are willing to change their ways. It's not like you can have a bot for everything in the game, and the people who've achieved titles and completions like vanquishing, exploration, and guardian titles must've done it through hard work as well.

I might just be a little irritated that my account has been banned as well, but the worst part of it is I didn't even get a chance to say goodbye to my friends and guild members, whom I've gotten very close to.

Bottom line is: Permament bans for people with no prior offenses might be a little harsh. If you've effectively found a way to stop botting and detect it, then the people that you've banned don't become much of a threat to the game anymore.

Might be so... but where to draw a line....
Basic is...they knew that they where doing things that where not justified by the rules....

belshazaarswrath · May 28, 2010, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Lets Just consider the possibility that...

ANet was on the problem a good time before we demanded a response on botting, if you believe that they banned retroactively for a considerate amount of time...and...It seems to be way personal issue with Anet hinting the skill dhumm used to slay and humiliate the offender. I would be pissed to if i was part of a staff who is paid to keep a vibrant gaming experience for fans.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Vengeance_is_Ours

Show for the mindless masses?

We DEMANDED for a response for a month and they replied, everyone that witnessed is now reminded botting will not be tolerated...honestly i can't think of more effective response to our demand.

Thank you for the reply Anet. We hear you loud and clear

As far as I'm concerned you're proving my point. Bragging about banning a shitload of people and doing it in an extravagant fashion such as this is clearly a show for the masses and it appeases their need to watch people get shitted on while using their crimes as justification. They could have done this quickly and quietly but they chose not to. And people are getting warm fuzzy's about it.

Sure they broke the rules. Sure they got caught. Why don't you punish them the same way you have everyone else before? I mean seriously the makers of this game are SHOWING OFF that 3,700 of their players thought the game was too much of a pain in the ass to play.

Mireles · May 28, 2010, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

As far as I'm concerned you're proving my point. Bragging about banning a shitload of people and doing it in an extravagant fashion such as this is clearly a show for the masses and it appeases their need to watch people get shitted on while using their crimes as justification. They could have done this quickly and quietly but they chose not to. And people are getting warm fuzzy's about it.

Sure they broke the rules. Sure they got caught. Why don't you punish them the same way you have everyone else before? I mean seriously the makers of this game are SHOWING OFF that 3,700 of their players thought the game was too much of a pain in the ass to play.

You seem totally offended by the fact that people were banned publicly? why? You know they broke the rules...and why care if its a pain in the ass?

For one, there is no clearer way to show who is in control than "showing off" if by that you mean enforcing rules that create a game.... just like the police will pull your ass over with flashing lights and sirens..to remind people you better not speed or drink and drive we will get you too. Sorry apparently there is enforcement to rules... by spreading that message they are doing people a favor by reminding people there consequences to botting.

Kashrlyyk · May 28, 2010, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Slydell

They've basically said for 5 years straight that if you bot you will be caught and banned. So people who botted have no second chances, they didn't follow the rules, so they lost. End of story.

I have never seen that announcement INGAME and on the forums or on the wiki doesn`t count. Even the login screen isn`t enough, because you can add a command to the shortcut to GW and automatically login, never seeing that login screen.

Permanent punishment without a warning shot first are not OK!

MisterB · May 28, 2010, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

I have never seen that announcement INGAME and on the forums or on the wiki doesn`t count. Even the login screen isn`t enough, because you can add a command to the shortcut to GW and automatically login, never seeing that login screen.

Permanent punishment without a warning shot first are not OK!

It's called the End User License Agreement and the Rules of Conduct. The EULA is your in game warning that you are required to agree to the very first time you play, or any time it is updated. ANet already warned everyone. It's not ANet's fault if someone ignores the warning or did not read it.

majoho · May 28, 2010, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

I have never seen that announcement INGAME

Permanent punishment without a warning shot first are not OK!

Just because you didn't read it doesn't mean it wasn't announced.

It's in the EULA, the thing you agree to when you register the game.

Kashrlyyk · May 28, 2010, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

It's called the End User License Agreement and the Rules of Conduct. The EULA is your in game warning that you are required to agree to the very first time you play, or any time it is updated. ANet already warned everyone. It's not ANet's fault if someone ignores the warning or did not read it.

The usual EULA excuse, even though it has already been mentioned that the EULA is legally highly questionable especially in Europe.

Or don't you think that "We can ban you without any reasons" isn't extremely one-sided and to the disadvantage of the customer? It's like saying "We expect you to pay for a service that we then decide about if we actually provide it or not!".

What disturbs me the most is that so many people are extremely hateful on this topic and fine with ANet being Accuser, Judge and Executioner in one person even though ANet never provides proof for anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleta

The punishment fit the crime.

In a virtual world someone used a program to get virtual results and lost REAL MONEY! How hate-filled and stupid do you have to be to agree with you?

superraptors · May 28, 2010, 06:51 AM // 06:51

hahahah they did what i exactly wanted them to do a mass ban without warning mwuahahah